Dorothy 6:46 Zoe, I'm so happy to be having this conversation with you today about BABE. So, I love her so much. Um, I always say all my books are like she/her pronouns. So like, I love her so much. I love the cover, like, a million times infinity, I just remember when I saw it, especially with like, the honey dripping and like the candy, it just like made me want to cry. And I just feel like this cover really encapsulates like the meaning behind the book, the ethos of the book, the forums, and the content and the joy and sex of the book. What's beautiful, too, is that it also captures, you know, kind of the essence of Honey Literary Inc., which is one of my many editorial passions in life. I just wanted to start out with a general question. I was wondering, if we could talk about the inspiration behind the cover. I know, that's really general, but I think that's a fun place to start. Zoe 7:46 Okay, well, definitely. Um, and this might be kind of awkward to state, but, you were the inspiration for the cover. The book is, I mean, and also I was looking at your cover ideas, and the Honeybear was one of them. [Screenshot: Cover Image Suggestions from Dorothy's kit] Like, I think, I don't know if I can share it, but or I can just read it, maybe that would be better. So the first one is: "I'm thinking baby blue, magenta, pink, and red for the overall palette, and any combo of these. A simple cover with a pink background, a baby blue heart that surrounds the title BABE. Maybe a heart and font can be stylized in a sign type of way." And number two is: "Maybe a honey bear maybe a honey bear, like one of those honey jars shaped like a bear." Um, and then you go on and name, like other types of food and like, these really powerful images. And I fixated on this honey bear because it has this really iconic shape. And, you know, a really rich material and all of BABE itself and your other work has a lot to do with different types of tastes and like auras. And it's really imbued with I think what like a lot of Americans might say is like a brand or something like that. But I mean, for me reading it, I think it's deeper than that because it's just like intertwined with associations and feelings and experiences that we've had, like, when we're like, also, like ingesting pop culture or something, like, you know, you're eating and you're having these experiences and you're in maybe, you know, a place like, like you mentioned a lot in the poems like eating burgers and shakes and stuff like that. And like, I have a lot of experiences that are in like, Fuddruckers. And ironically, like, that was an American place that I like I had never been to, but I had a lot of like romantic experiences in Qatar, where I lived before in Fuddruckers of all places, and it was just yeah, these like burgers and shakes and like strange things are American in like this weird way and it connects us, right. [In BABE] I really enjoyed these really big metaphors for tastes and experiences. And so, I worked with the Honeybear image for a long time. And actually, I should probably back up, sorry. I'm looking at my images and I'm like, where do I need to start? Okay, so I grabbed some image references. Dorothy I'm excited. Zoe I started looking at all of these and it's kind of weird showing you these now because like I've never shared these. [Valentines Card Screenshot] Dorothy 4:33 Yeah. Yeah, that's so cool. That's a Valentine it's like such a coincidental timing. Zoe 4:41 Yeah, it was from this really like kitsch advertisement for obviously General Motors Motorama and I had this like woman floating around and trying out all these cars and stuff like that, but it took place in Las Vegas. So I was trying to connect, first of all, to a place in BABE. There are a lot of places in [BABE], but one of the main iconic places like this Honeybear—I'm thinking of other icons and things like that—is Las Vegas. And so, I was thinking also of your fascination with Liberace. Dorothy 5:23 Yeah, this heart really fascinates me too, because this heart, in the advertisement, is a special invitation. But I also think that in poetry, the poet is essentially giving the reader—the audience—a special invitation in. I love that like personalization that that exudes. I also love the fact that it's a blue heart, which is like, less traditionally associated with hearts. So it's got that like, unexpected factor. It's not pink or red. Zoe 5:49 Yeah, and it's— Dorothy Yeah Zoe I mean, it's really unexpected to see something this genuine in an advertisement, like, I don't know how it would been read back in the day, but it was just like, kind of jarring. I was like, wow, like, someone really put this together. Dorothy Oh, yeah. Zoe Like, I don't know, if—what the feeling would have been back then. But I mean, I guess they were going for romance, right? Dorothy 6:15 I mean, it looks really thoughtful. You know, it looks like, sweet but also, like, simultaneously sincere. So it's not like it doesn't cross into sentimentality. It's actually like really sincere. Oh, yeah. Here we have Liberace. [Liberace Photo by Allan Warren, creative commons license] Zoe 6:26 Right? Dorothy 6:27 Yeah. Zoe 6:28 So, in contrast to this kind-of sincerity, you've got this, this like, "over-the-top" showmanship. But I do believe in Liberace's sincerity, and in the sincerity of the signage and stuff but a lot of people take it like, you know, laugh at this queerness, right? That's what it is, like— Dorothy 6:54 Yeah. Zoe 6:56 And I like, I adore it. Like, look at these things. [Betty Willis Image: https://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/media/filer_public_thumbnails/filer_public/d4/f6/d4f6477e-4e97-4d36-82cc-e98a26608b39/lasvegas_willis.jpg__300x287_q85_crop_subsampling-2_upscale.jpg] [Also, see updated transcript with this revised image in public domain: Welcome_to_fabulous_las_vegas_sign.jpg] Dorothy 7:02 Yeah Zoe 7:02 This is Betty Willis. She was the sign designer for the "Welcome to Las Vegas" sign. Dorothy 7:15 Oh, I didn't know that. Zoe You can see it in the background. Dorothy Oh, yeah. Yeah. Zoe 7:18 She died a couple years ago. I think that her inspiration must have been Liberace. I mean, how could it not have been? I was looking at his sequins. And— Dorothy 7:30 Oh, yeah. [Stars and Sequins.jpg] Zoe 7:31 It looks like a North Star. But I mean, to me, this is, you know, you're on stage when you arrive in Las Vegas. I've never been to Las Vegas. But that's what I imagine. Dorothy 7:43 I need to show you sometime my parents live there lets plan a Diode trip— Zoe 7:50 Oh, my God. Dorothy 7:50 to Las Vegas Vegas over like, let's tell Patty and Law to put it on the agenda. Zoe 7:55 I would—that would be amazing. I love that so much. Dorothy 7:59 Oh my god, I think that this is just so smart. Because I mean, like, yeah, you're completely right. Like, I feel that so many people who don't get it, they laugh at this queerness or they try to like, you know, fetishize it. But there is—there was a reason why he was like such a big showman. You think about all the outfits he had this one is so signature. He also had all these coats that had—that were like fur and like, over the top and all the sequins and the rhinestones and bringing the candelabra on the stage. So absolutely. Zoe Yeah Dorothy I find that even today, with all the amazing contemporary architecture going on in Vegas, like, there's this interesting mix of that plus, like, the kitschy-ness. In many odd ways, you know, like Liberace is kind of in all of that, I think. Zoe 8:45 Yeah. Dorothy 8:47 Yeah. Zoe 8:48 Is it because like, I mean, he took it seriously? Dorothy 8:52 I think he did. I mean, I think he was I think he was just like incredibly smart. I think it's there's this move where, I mean, he was closeted, yes, but it's like at least publicly, but it's kind of like this move of like, "Oh, how can I trick all these straight people in the audience" because— Zoe 9:08 Right? Dorothy 9:09 I remember taking a pop culture class back in my undergrad days at Cornell, which was when this fascination started and like, oddly enough, that was also when I was starting to develop my own queerness without being like, fully aware, right, of like, my identity or sexuality but that's what college is for. And I— Zoe 9:25 [laughs] Dorothy 9:25 remember how like, our professor who's this like very, very brilliant scholar, Glenn Altschuler, he's this brilliant scholar of American pop culture and history. He was basically telling us that every single week, like Liberace would get love notes and like, marriage proposals from all these women and it—and that's like the funny part and I just feel like sometimes I mean, I subconsciously feel like he did that to also just kind of like rub in in people's faces like oh, hey, I'm queer. But yet he you know, it was like never stated and he was adored by like, all these women. He was adored by all these housewives— Zoe Right, yeah. Dorothy It's funny. Yeah, it's incredible. It's over the top. It's like unabashed, and it's also just deeply, I guess, in that case, it's deeply personal. Yeah. Zoe 10:13 Yeah, living freely is romantic. And this. I mean, is an incredible form of masculinity to— Dorothy 10:23 Yeah Zoe 10:23 is to do that. And that is so hot. Dorothy 10:26 I think so. Absolutely. Zoe 10:28 Yeah, right? Whew. Anyway. Dorothy 10:32 I love this. And with the cover, I see like the blue I know that the blue isn't necessarily the focal point with the honey bears, but the blue really, like makes the honey there pop out with the magenta honey. So I see that here. I see, like, all of that here too. In the book. Zoe [Hmm, yeah. Where are my other? Sorry, just, I feel like I lost track of the question. I have so many things open. I'm gonna just close these. Right. Okay, so.] Zoe 11:10 I also—I wanted to match your excesses and the maximal-isms of BABE and I had really high aims with that. [laughs] And it was, I realized, I have to set the stage. I can't match that because that's not my style. Because I tend to like fixate on really small details. And I mean, you can even see that in these— [BABE Text Final.jpg] Dorothy 11:47 Yeah Zoe 11:48 the reflections in "BABE". That's the window, reflecting in the honey. I zoomed in really closely to change the lines, and make them a little bit straighter in places. And then I realized, I think that is so much detail in and of itself, that it needs more space to just breathe. And then that's where I finished. But before that, I also traveled through all these other maximal ideas, and I wanted to also share some of my like, really informal design education. Very informal . . . Dorothy 12:35 Well, it doesn't come across as informal. So gorgeous. It's so gorgeous. [Plant Nursery Ad.jpg] Zoe 12:44 So, I used to work at a plant nursery, and these ads would come out in the Washington Post, because it was outside of the DC area. And so we'd get these customers coming in, you know, who still bought the Post. It was these older women who absolutely loved these, and they needed to use their reading glasses to figure it out. And we would stand at the front counter and try to like, figure out what they were talking about. There's no grid system to these advertisements. It's just everything everywhere. It's an experience. It's just incredible. And like, thinking back on that reminded me of Liberace and being over the top. And also just flowers and queerness. I'd get bored and I'd stare at these ads too. My boss made them and I think that they're really fun to look at but a lot of maybe more formally-trained graphic designers might have other thoughts. That's what I think of in terms of a regional graphic design aesthetic or something if there maybe is one for Northern Virginia, specifically, as opposed to maybe Las Vegas design or Betty Willis. Dorothy 14:16 Yeah, this is really cool because I love the fact that there are like, multiple fonts and I love the fact too that it's like Liberace, right. It's like, it's decorative. It's highly decorative. I feel like this is like this cool cross between—it reminds me a lot of like the advertisements at Trader Joe's, like, those aren't in color, but like I feel like the fonts are kind of similar. And there's also kind of a bit of like a tiki menu aesthetic going on too. But I— Zoe 14:45 [laughs] Dorothy 14:46 I sincerely mean that's like I really really really adore this because, at the same time like, isn't design for the customer, or for, in the case of books, the audience, right? Design is for the audience and this is extremely fun, but also like accessible for the target audience of those women who come in shopping. Zoe 15:06 Yeah, definitely. Dorothy 15:08 Oh, that's so cool. Zoe 15:11 [Let's see what we have to go through in my odd list.] Oh, and I made a list of all the food in BABE. I don't know how exactly accurate it is. But I thought, "What a great thing to have." Dorothy 15:29 [laughs] I love that. Zoe 15:31 Like, it's just a text edit. Like, it should have been like a word map. [see: "All the food in BABE.txt"] Dorothy 15:36 [laughs] Oh this makes me so happy. Oh, wow. Oh, dang, there's that many. I didn't realize it was that many. Whoah. Zoe 15:43 I loved it. Yeah, I mean, it was just like the the food aspect, the taste, the the colors of BABE were something that I really wanted to highlight. Now I want to show you all the the bears. [See "The Bears" folder images 1-4] Dorothy 16:05 The bear is also so queer, so this is so fitting. Zoe 16:13 Yeah, actually, I didn't consider that until now because they're, they're like, so cute. They're not like, they're not big at all. And now just—maybe I should reconsider. Dorothy 16:25 So pretty. Oh my god. That's so pretty. Zoe 16:31 So there's this bear shape, right . . . I wanted to showcase it that way. And then I started to realize, you know, it's very, it's maybe like too iconic. It's too it's too linear. It would have to sit in the middle of the composition, right? Dorothy 17:04 Mhmm Zoe 17:04 So it didn't like I think it would have needed a pyramid shape or something. So when I was trying to work out a cover, I cropped it. I kept fiddling with it. And it just—it just wasn't working. And then I felt like, okay, well, I need to get into, you know, the actual honey of it, the actual medium. And I have a background in painting. I don't really think that informed it too much. Because like, this was like not painting, like whatsoever. Dorothy 17:07 Oh, wow. So you literally painted it? Zoe 17:46 Yeah, yeah. So it's—I wanted to capture the actual organic nature of honey. And you can see here like, it's starting to, I don't know, if I zoom in, um, it was kind of a challenging process. Like, I got all these like fibers stuck in it. It kept running everywhere. So, I had to figure out, you know how I could do it really fast. And then also take a picture of it. Dorothy 18:12 oh, wow, well, thank you so much. Zoe 18:17 Definitely. There were two font iterations. Dorothy 18:20 yeah. [Serif Honey.jpg] Zoe 18:22 So this one is a serif font, and it obviously doesn't work. It's just not working. The ligatures are too thin, and it didn't really hold the medium very well. So I needed something fat and I found this Intro typeface. It's a really versatile font. For this, it worked out perfectly because the the medium could expand beyond the limits and still be somewhat legible. And then I took photographs of it in front of the big window just to get all of the textures coming through. [Sans Serif Honey.jpg] Dorothy 19:09 Oh, wow. Zoe 19:09 So honey has this really orange look in the bottle. It's got this like this really rich color, but then when you spread it out it just loses it. I needed something to reinforce that. So I figured I'd have to photograph it on a color. Dorothy 19:33 Neat Zoe I went through iterations. Here's yellow. Dorothy Oh Zoe 19:39 I ended up using this orange. [Orange B.jpg] Dorothy 19:46 Oh, wow. It's like I think it's also neat because I know that when we revealed the cover, a lot of people online were saying that like it looks like a lollipop or like candy and I just feel like the whole process reminds me of like candy making in a sense and like just I love how sensory it is. I love how sensory your process was now that I get to hear about it. Zoe 20:08 There were a lot of like, I mean, I guess you would say accidentals, but I mean like I literally had a lot of accidents. Dorothy 20:27 No, but that happens, but honestly, that happens with art, you know, like, yeah, it's so it's such like a visceral sensory process that that happens. Yeah. Wow. This is so no, I can't thank you enough, Zoe, like I—Oh, my God, like, this means so much just being also being able to see the process. It's just so cool. Zoe Definitely! Dorothy Wow Zoe Oh, sorry. I talked into your second question. But yeah, you wanted to know about the layout and and how it came to be. Dorothy Yeah, I was really fascinated what you're saying because like, when you were showing me all the honey bears I was I really like adore them. But no, I guess my second question is about the layout. Because the final result of BABE, which is stunning, is it's incredibly minimalistic in the best way is because we have all this space up here. But then you can't ignore anything down here, which is really cool is that's the cover. And I was just like thinking because when you were showing me all those pictures of the honey bears, which are all adorable, you are also saying Oh, but it's so vertical. That that doesn't necessarily work as like the main cover. And I feel like that kind of like bleeds into this question too about the minimalism along with like, your whole, I guess, um, honey-making process in creating the cover. Zoe 22:02 Yeah, it had to have a weight to it in order to utilize the whole space of the cover. Like I think, I mean, if we had got just gone with, you know, a bear that it still would have been successful in some ways. But it just it wasn't, it wasn't there, for me. It didn't involve all of the space and all of the composition or what, like, whatever you want to call it. Dorothy yeah, Zoe I needed it to speak to the background to the color and then so I figured I could work in a drip to look like a bear in the back. Like, this is the full spread. And then, when the book is closed, you can still see the bear. So you know, it's still there. [BABE_Cover_Spread.jpg] [BABE_Back_Cover.jpg] Dorothy 23:01 Yeah, I think it's I just think it's like so perfect. And I feel like, um, all those like, I guess like bear versions would be great for like posters or like other other products, you know, but for the book itself, this bear I think it's perfect from what we see in the back to like, how the bear like is on both ends of the cover. Yeah, it just, it just kind of, I think the colors, the color combination too exudes, like maybe the ethos and the spirit of the book. Zoe 23:33 Right? I wanted it to be tart, something surprising. Because honey has this really, like deep and sometimes subtle sweetness. And I felt like BABE often gives like a one-two punch or, you know, and then it comes back for round two or three. And honey kind of is a like a dressing to that and . . . I didn't know if it could carry that much energy. So, I wanted to play that up with color. Dorothy Yeah, yeah [Pantone 219 XGC] Zoe And that's that's thanks to also your color recommendations. Like, this magenta is very close to this Pantone, I think. Yes, like it's just—. This one is straight Magenta. This one has a little bit of it's either blue or black mixed in with it. Dorothy 24:38 Yeah, it's I it was like really funny because I was like thinking about like the pinks of the book, you know, because I kind of love like an aesthetic that's also like super feminine or femme, I guess in my case, but, after going on the Pantone I've been like figuring out which exact magenta or magenta is it gonna like, lie between, I looked back and I was like, Wait, the one that you just pulled up is actually very, very similar to Barbies magenta, and I didn't even like realize that. Zoe 25:10 It really is. Yeah. Dorothy 25:14 I didn't realize that because I think that I sent it to you one night. And then I Googled it. Because I'm always like, interested to see like, I guess what other brands or products like, what colors they use, and I think that like the one of the Google matches that came out was like Barbies magenta, and then like, oh, wait, that actually like really makes sense. Zoe 25:34 Yeah. I think you you mentioned Barbie also in the book too as an embodiment of BABE. Dorothy 25:41 I think so. Zoe 25:45 Like, I remember also, I mean, I played with Barbie. And, like this D— [Cherry D.jpg] Dorothy 25:54 Yeah, yeah! Zoe 25:55 Right. There's something about it that I'm like, wait a minute, wherever have I seen that. Dorothy 26:02 Yeah! Zoe 26:02 Like, it's kind of trippy, you know, sometimes when these references, like, sneak up? Dorothy 26:11 I think so. I mean, I think that these cherries—and I adore this pattern so much—I think that these cherries like remind me a lot of like a dress that Barbie wore but then they also remind me a lot about the wardrobe from Sex in the City back in its like heyday. These cherries remind me a lot of some of what Patricia Field—who was the stylist for that show or designer for that show—would gravitate towards. Zoe 26:39 Ah. Dorothy 26:39 And so it's like something that's like very like, unabashedly feminine but in this very like kitschy type of way. Zoe 26:48 Like, for which characters I'm curious. Dorothy It's, it's an odd cross I would say between three of the characters. So Charlotte has this cherry necklace. And but hers is gold. But she has this cherry necklace. So like one of those cherries looks like part of her necklace. But then the pattern itself though, so it has a little bit of Charlotte in it. But of course, like the way that she dresses is very like preppy and conservative. So it can't be like quite her at the same time. But then it also kind of looks like the outfit Charlotte wore to the Playboy Mansion, but this is a lot sexier. It's a sexier print of that. But then what were the actual like [ethos of this wives?] would be across between like Carrie and Samantha, because Carrie would be wearing something like this because I feel like that's one of her signature colors. I believe the pink is kind of her signature color. And later on like that white kind of is when she after she gets married. Zoe Yeah, Dorothy 27:51 But it would also be Samantha too, because Samantha has this great sweater that has all these bananas on it. And like it's not exactly the same thing. But you know, like the connotation is like, you know, the connotation is kind of similar. Zoe [laughs] No, yeah but she would totally have bananas, right? Dorothy Yes, she'd have bananas, but like I feel like both of them are like highly stylistic and kitschy and like when I say kitschy, I mean in like in this really positive way. Because I think that kitschy-ness has this level of high awareness in it. So I think that a lot of people who, for instance, don't understand the word kitschy, they can't tell the difference between kitsch, and middle brow or low brow but kitsch has a certain awareness in it that is actually really smart. And actually takes it back to a very sophisticated concept. Zoe 28:42 Definitely. Dorothy 28:43 Yeah. So yeah, it was just like really funny seeing these like cherries, because I'm just like, Oh, I feel all these like references. And earlier on, when you were talking about getting burgers or like going to a fast food chain, that really warmed my heart because something that I think about a lot is like the meaning of American popular culture to kids of immigrants, and a lot of BABE is kind of this child of immigrant story. That always runs through all my work. But I think that there's this like, there's this deep understanding that a lot of kids of immigrants have with how they grasp American popular culture. And oftentimes, you know, I feel like these kids of immigrants they point—especially as they get older—they point to like problematic things within American popular culture. But yet there is this kind of like interesting sentimentality and memory that they hold on to because it's basically this idea of like, "Oh, my parents worked really hard so I could have like access to all these things." So let me rewrite the story. Zoe 29:47 Mm. Dorothy 29:48 Yeah. So that meant a lot to me. Thank you. Zoe 29:52 Definitely. Dorothy 29:53 Yeah, let's see. Okay, um, something I that was really important to me when we were talking about the creation of BABE, Zoe, was, I believe one day, we talked a bit about accessibility because you know, in those stages, when we're finalizing the book or looking at fonts I remember you were telling me "Oh, this font is like accessible." And I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about that. Accessibility is something that I'm continuously learning, especially with heading a lit mag. Zoe So, there are fonts that are more readable or legible in the body of a text and others are more suitable for titles or signage, right, and then there are fonts that are easier for people to read with Dyslexia. There's another aspect of accessibility where you can just, you know . . . read an audiobook. That, for some people, is way more accessible than holding a book in your hands. I have a couple of people with Dyslexia in my family and they're like totally into e-books [and audiobooks] and so we've talked about how many books we read and it's—you know, they've been listening to them and it's you know, I wonder if I even need to change the way I talk about reading. Dorothy Yeah. Zoe And if we can like, think about reading in terms of also listening. Dorothy Yeah. Zoe [laughs] I have a lot of gripes with accessibility in terms of material culture. People . . . say . . . e-books are the cure for just regular texts, as if that's going to solve a lot of issues. But e-books [use] a proprietary software, and you're designing for a system that's mostly owned by Jeff Besos. Dorothy. Yup Zoe It doesn't break down as many barriers as people think it should. Dorothy Exactly. Exactly. Zoe Another aspect of accessibility within literature in general is just like zines and like DIY culture. Chapbooks are awesome. Within chaps, within zines, I've seen a lot of people explore things that they haven't or maybe wouldn't really be able to think about or share in mainstream venues, in mainstream publishing, especially. Yeah, you'd also call that self-publishing. Dorothy Yeah. Zoe I have some good examples. I don't know if this exactly answers your question but like when you were talking about accessibility I thought, "well that's definitely zines," right? Dorothy Yeah. Right. I'd love to see what you have. Zoe I have just like a small pamphlet of Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." It begins with a quote that says, "when asked about what she wanted to see happen to the books after death," the quote says, "I want them available. I want cheap paper editions of them. I want them to be continuously downloaded in forty different languages. I want them to be read. I want them to be argued about. I want people to cry over them. I want unreadable dissertations written about them. I want people to get angry with them. I want people to love them." I thought that was this really great anticapitalist sentiment. Dorothy I love that so much. I love that so much. It's—I think that talking about accessibility and like creating texts and selecting the right font is just like another reason why I just love working with the entire Diode family and it's been such a pleasure working with you, Zoe. And I think that's something else that's like really important within this conversation, well, it's accessibility it's also readership and bringing in more readers and making sure that everything that's created is accessible to those readers on multiple levels. But I also think that this goes back to these questions of community and I thought that like within this interview it would be nice to celebrate like all the great work that Diode is doing and like all the amazing Diode authors and of course, all the work that you do, Zoe, along with Patty and Law, who are wonderful. And I thought that maybe we could talk a little about some fun upcoming projects that Diode is up to or what you're excited about with the press. Zoe Oh, definitely. Well, Patty is always like first and foremost in my mind. Everything that I've been able to do, that the press is doing and has done, has begun with her energy and the love that she has for all of these books, the vision she has for Diode. Her editorial example is one that I try to live by every day. Diode—or my experience of poetry—would not be the same without Patty. And, you know, all the authors are so awesome. There are so many authors with different backgrounds and, to touch back on your question about accessibility, I also was thinking of people who come to Diode with a multilingual background as well. Dorothy Absolutely. Zoe They have like poems and that are also multilingual. And it's really awesome to be able to find a typeface that caters to both languages. It's really important for a voice to come through as one author's voice. Dorothy Absolutely. Absolutely. Zoe And so, I think, in a couple books, whether it's Arabic or English or like Korean and English, the typefaces should mirror each other in some way. Dorothy Yeah. Zoe Like, you know, the Hangul shouldn't assimilate into an English style or you know, the Roman aesthetic. Like, we can find a typeface that [works] for both. There aren't a lot of typefaces out there than can accomplish that. Dorothy Yeah. I feel like that's such a major challenge. And like it also like says a lot and its like why I really value all the work that you do because, like absolutely, I think something that like irritates me is this old standard that some people unfortunately still have that, if in a poem or short story or an essay, you have word or phrases or sentences in a language other than English people are like, "Oh, those should be italicized." Zoe No Dorothy No, you're basically othering a language. It's one thing if the word not in English is italicized because the character, let's say, is emphasizing that word or shouting that word, you know, but if it's just like, plain spoken, it should be in the same font or within the same realm. And I think that it does say a lot about how maybe why Diode—one of the many reasons why Diode is so great—is because we have these certain design challenges but how we go around that and create something that is authentic and respectful and honors all the cultures and identities that are set forth, along with the readership too. Zoe Definitely. You've really touched on like, a huge design conversation—or series of conversations that have been happening. Like, one of my design texts talks about how footnotes have, you know, sort-of become a thing of the past, not really, but like, footnotes themselves call back to this time where people divided foot traffic between classes and between races [in architecture]. Part of the challenge I think, also, in eliminating these barriers also falls on the writer too, like why would you want to include a footnote as opposed to just putting everything in the text itself. Why create an hierarchy? Dorothy Wow. But that metaphor. I never knew that—so—wow. That is an extremely strong metaphor because that is like a hierarchy between the main text and the footnote. Wow. Zoe Yeah. Margins. Marginalia. All of that, yeah. Like, it's, people think like categories can be a good way to, I don't know, instruct? Like, that's kind of what it comes down to, like, it's this weird sort of... it feels like conversion therapy, Dorothy Yeah Zoe Like when you're reading a book that's really heavy on the glossary or just like a notes section and you have to keep flipping around, it feels like an indoctrination sometimes—at least when I'm reading a really old book that uses a lot of footnotes or something. Dorothy It's almost like too encyclopedic in a way and then like having to go—I guess for the reader, like having to go like back and forth like, "I'm absorbing this part of the text but then I have to go back or I have to look down, or you know, next to it, to be like ok here—" but then it's like why isn't all that concept within the main text. I guess you're right, it also doesn't make for the most pleasurable—or in many cases, like accessible—experience for the audience. Zoe Yeah Dorothy Yeah. Wow. I was also wondering—I am learning so much today—I always treasure our time together. So, as a designer, I'd love to ask this question to like designers, and artists, if we were doing like a color association, what are your like top three favorite Pantone colors? And then also we were also doing like a font association, like, what is one of your favorite fonts? Zoe Oh my gosh. So I want to start with the font first Dorothy Yeah Zoe because I have to type it out Dorothy Oh neat[?] Zoe and I wanted to see if it actually, if there was Baskerville in here and there isn't so I'll have to do that in the background so—it is Baskerville, well that is my favorite font for BABE Dorothy Yeah. Yeah. Zoe As you know, because I had to have—I had to see the word "Queer" written with the Baskerville "Q". Dorothy Oh, really. Oh, wow. Zoe So I took this graphic design class a really long time ago. It was like graphic design for illustrators. This was before I changed my major in undergrad. And, my professor, Robert Meganck, he really changed my mind about design, not to get all like, sentimental, but like Dorothy Yeah. Zoe He said, like, the most beautiful typeface is Baskerville, and that always stuck with me because he said, "[it was for the Q]". And I kept thinking about that "Q" literally for the rest of my life. [Queer.jpg] Dorothy laughs Zoe No, I mean like, I agree, because, ever since he said that in class that's also the time, as you said before, that you're having these queer experiences in college. Or, you're becoming you in a way where you're starting to see yourself, to mirror yourself, you know, and like, I didn't become the Q, but like, I could see the Q. Dorothy laughs Zoe laughs But like, that Q—that Q is so gay. Like, I'm sorry, my kid's in the other room. She's gonna come in like wondering what I'm yelling about, but yeah, I'm yelling about a Q. So it's like— Dorothy laughs Zoe It's such, like, I don't know. If there's a queer typeface this is definitely it. And it's also, like, really classic. It's pretty readable. Like, in terms of—in general, maybe Garamond fits a little bit better on the page, but that's another conversation because it's—this is so suitable, for BABE especially. Dorothy It's incredibly suitable. And I love the fact that you were pointing our attention to the Q. The Q is so perfect. The Q is so Queer. It's beautiful. And I think that Baskerville is also like super clean and I understand that — I know we talked—it's so funny that—because writers talk about this all the time, you know, how they love putting their poems in Garamond, you know. Zoe [laughs] Dorothy But sometimes I'm just like—. I have a tendency to do that when I'm typing up my lesson plans because they look more readable to my eye and it becomes more pleasurable. I dunno. Garamond is sometimes a little overrated. Zoe Yeah, I mean, as a lot of default fonts go, it tends to have that vibe, that people are so used to seeing it and there are like, a lot of accessible fonts out there that aren't the default, just, I mean, you know, what can you do? If Garamond makes people happy, then it makes people happy. Dorothy laughs Zoe Sometimes you have to let it go. [unintelligible] Dorothy I have one final question for you, and this is also one big general question, but I want to talk a bit more about unity and I know that we've seen so many instances of unity today from being able to capture your amazing process to seeing the whole process of creating the honey words of BABE, to thinking about the placement of the honey bears in unity with the cover, with the fonts, and now with the unity of the fonts that are being used. I'm wondering, as a designer, how would you succinctly describe the ways in which the cover enhances the story of the book. Zoe I think it relates a lot to tone. I don't know it's strange—my thoughts come with a question: When you're writing poetry, do you see an image, or do the words roll of your tongue? Like, how do these—how do they get there? So since I'm more visual, at least in my approach, I tend to summarize things in terms of visuals. And so that's where I think visual metaphor comes from, for me, is like, an aftertaste, almost, like—it's a bit weird—but I want to convey something that reminds me of the word, like as a shorthand. Dorothy Absolutely. Zoe So, like when, I see covers out there, like the ones that stick out to me that I associate a lot of myself with—or a narrative with—it's something that is already associative, right? Dorothy Yeah Zoe It's in dialogue with something in my subconscious. And I'm aware that's also a very biased read, right? I don't want to exclude myself, or other people or stories, from my experience. I'm also thinking about what covers recently that I've seen that gave me that. Off the top of my head, I'm remembering Randall Mann's A BETTER LIFE— [URL: https://www.perseabooks.com/better-life ] Dorothy Yeah! Yeah, yeah. Zoe —is really good. It's really well designed. So, like these portraits on the front are from Blueboy magazine. The cover artist is Pacifico Silano and the graphic designer is Rita Lascaro. So when you see something like this, organized in this grid structure, you're calling out newspapers and tabloids and these structures that already exist. And like, before I saw [the book] I was like, that's kinda like a centerfold [in the gaze and composition], like [in] a magazine, but the design structure, inside—every poem is centered on the page, just the way a classified ad would be if you excerpted it from the publication—it would be framed in that way. And it carries forward this visual metaphor [of solicitation] in a way that plays with the text. Where else have I seen that? Oh. Ocean Vuong's ON EARTH WE'RE BRIEFLY GORGEOUS and Garth Greenwell's CLEANNESS. Those cover images—[by Sam Contis and Jack Davison, respectively]—they remind me of Dorothy Lange and her survey of hardship, and feelings, and grief. All of those feelings are carried through those images and also through those works. And so, when I see a cover like that I feel like I'm already connected to the story. That's what I was trying to do with BABE. Dorothy No, it makes total sense because we're talking about the full unity of it all. The design elements, these visuals, these snippets of images that we see, they kind of bring forth, in the case of poetry—more. I would always argue that the strongest poetry always goes back to the image. And the image doesn't have to be this literal thing, though many times beautiful poetry has these literal images that can read like billboards or classifieds or something that's just simply very sharp in our minds. Zoe Definitely. Dorothy Yeah. Zoe I have a final—I think we have a little bit of time Dorothy Yeah! Zoe I wanted to know more about your associations with color. There was this one excellent poem that Diode published and—I don't know, I didn't want to like spring it on you, because it's a triggering poem— Dorothy Oh, it's fine Zoe So, trigger warning: rape. "Five Sonnets for Red Lips: Goodbye J." Dorothy Yeah, yeah! Zoe The whole poem presents this color [red] over and over again but the poem creates a different experience of the color in a way that changes the aura of it. Like, I don't know of any other way of describing it. Like, it's something beyond taste, even, so it was really surprising for me to read through that. Especially with the final lines: "because red is the color of Chinese good fortune and I am telling you, goodbye forever J. Red because stop". You could be looking at the color forever—but hearing these lines changes your perception of the color. Dorothy Yeah, absolutely. So, red is like a big color from my childhood and also from my life now. So, I grew up in Allentown, Pennsylvania and so we lived a very like, nice middle-class life but obviously Allentown, Pennsylvania is also like a very white town. There's not a whole lot of people of color, at least when I was growing up. And so, for Chinese New Year or for special occasions, my parents and I would like drive to Chinatown either in Philadelphia or in New York. And so, when I was a lot younger, whenever we would go to New York it would be for a big family Chinese New Year celebration. And unfortunately—we're kind of strained with my father's side of the family—so you know, we—but my mother's side of the family is in Hong Kong—but, with regard to familial history, I have a lot of fond memories of going to Chinatown as a kid and it's really strange because it's like one of those things where it's like, as a kid I was just like, "Ok, we're gonna do this" and I didn't really have a reaction, but as an adult looking back it's something that I really treasure. And I just remember, from a super young age, the color associations of red with Chinese culture, you know. And how I remember going to weddings in Chinatown and how the bride would, even if, the bride had let's say a western dress, it would be white, but then she'd be sure to change into a red dress that was like a Chinese style, Eastern style, for the dinner. Because like, that's just a big part that culture plays in our lives. I'm very proud to be Chinese and I'm very lucky in the sense that when I was young I was exposed to all these people who were not only Chinese but who were just very proud of their heritage. And in many ways you know like with this "Goodbye J" poem, the five sonnets, I think that the final line "in that moment I feel red," and then before that we have "red, the color of Chinese strength and beauty and in that moment I feel red, Oh that moment." It's this speaker like reclaiming her power. And it's like the speaker isn't just necessarily reclaiming her power in the sense of her body, but also in the sense that she was totally fetishized by this man and it's also this way of saying you know, we often associate red with anger. We often associate red with lust. You know, we often associate red with sex. We often associate red with blood, or injury, or harm. But the final two lines especially in that stanza, in that sonnet, she's basically saying like, "No, but red is also this color of my culture and so, if anything, even if I feel that I was harmed—and I was harmed—I can reclaim all the power through my culture. And we think back to the long history of Chinese culture and in her case, the long history of being a Chinese woman, being a Chinese femme and that's why—that's when—this speaker starts to regain her power: "Because red is the power of Chinese good fortune". And it's this kind of symbol where, it's like even though something really horrific happened—this violation happened—her culture will always be there for her. And her ancestors and her family will always be there for her. And they may not necessarily know everything that has gone on in her life, because obviously this is a very like private moment, but there is just so much power in that. Zoe Yeah. Dorothy Yeah. Thanks for asking that. Zoe It's just incredible. Dorothy Thank you. Zoe And, my first thought in response is an association. When I was reading that [poem] I was thinking "where else I was reading that in art". I have a zine. I was also thinking about movies and like, Kieślowski’s Three Colors Series, specifically Three Colors: Blue, reminded me a lot of that poem because the main character traverses so much trauma. Dorothy Yeah. Zoe But the film conveys her triumph through [song] mostly— Dorothy Yeah Zoe even though it's an exploration of color. And so, I thought like, "Wow, like, Dorothy did like the opposite. She's working with the sound of the words, but it's changing this color and it just grows—the color grows so vibrant." Dorothy Yeah Zoe So this is, this is the zine I was thinking about in response to that poem. The artist is Brandon Dean and it's called SOUTHERN EXPOSURE. [URL: https://www.brandon-dean.com/confederati ] Dorothy Oh, it's so neat Zoe First of all, it's very queer. He takes the Confederate flag and projects it on his subjects— Dorothy Yeah, Yeah Zoe who are all gay men from the south. And he also redesigns the flag to take ownership of it. He's a Black [artist] from the south. Dorothy Oh, wow. That's really neat. Zoe It's a really amazing way to reclaim—or maybe not even reclaim—but to assert that this [image] has always been mine, for me, if I want [to take it, to revise it], you know? Yeah, it's just this really admirable poem. Dorothy Thank you so much. Oh wow. This was so amazing. Thanks for your time today, Zoe. Zoe Yeah, definitely. Cool, uhm, [unintelligible]. I have more questions if you want to go on. [talking about time] Dorothy I think that, actually no, I think that it'd be fun if you have more questions, but yeah. Zoe You said that you refer to BABE as she/her and your works—you give them pronouns. Dorothy Yeah Zoe Before I knew that, I was playing with the idea of multiples in my head in relating to BABE. Thinking about Norman Dubie's words about BABE, I was imagining BABE as a chorus of Doreen and Esther, and all of Sylvia's creations, and I wonder if BABE has these figures. Are they a multitude of voices, is it—do we sometimes refer to the book as they/them? Or, who is BABE? Where is she or they? Dorothy Yeah, so that's a really amazing question. Thanks so much. Yeah. So, I think that it's, I feel very lucky that I think I'm at this point in my career where I can trace my work, you know, having multiple books I'm able to kind of trace the trajectory of this work. And, I dunno, this is like such a funny little association I just thought of but like whenever I got to like Sephora or Ulta I look at like the buxom lipglosses and lipsticks and how they're all named after like different women and femmes and like the packaging is also very cool it's like really like BABE like each of the colors—the shades, I should say—are like named after some sort of like feminine name. And, in terms of BABE within like the trajectory of my work, I think about how my first collection, THE ATTACK OF THE FIFTY-FOOT CENTERFOLD, that was a result because when—back in college I was actually asked to pose for a—if I would pose for one of those girly calendars—and I said no, but I don't necessarily regret it—it's because I knew you know that at the time that I could be going to grad school and I could possibly have a career in like academia so that was something at the time I said no to but that was kind of where a lot of this fascination with like sex and sex culture and maybe even like I guess averting it all. I grew up in this time I grew up in the 90's and I always like tell people I always tell people who are younger than me you know the 90's was a very very like sexed-up time. I think of right now on Hulu they have that show "Pam and Tommy" and at first I was excited to watch but I actually refused to watch it now because that was actually created without Pamela Anderson's consent. Its really horrific. I think back to my childhood and how you know like blonde women such as Pamela Anderson were just this epitome of like sex and like what it's like to be a woman. At the same time as much as like I value certain parts of my childhood and maybe event to an extent like certain exposures to popular culture, I think about how in many ways younger millennials, Gen-Z, are really lucky. Young people today are really opening up these conversations about beauty and young people today are also obviously opening up these really big conversations about race, about LGBTQI identity and many other important conversations regarding one identity, presentation, fashion, sexuality. I think that within that trajectory, as I keep trying to find myself, at the time when BABE was created, because some of these poems are recent some of these poems happened between the time when I finished grad school to the time when I moved for this job here in Wisconsin—I was basically kind of like going through the motions of some trauma coming out of like a very bad relationship ie. the "Goodbye J." poem and some of the other poems in the book. I think that at the start of creating BABE—though that the poems are kinda scattered based on the narrative that they create—BABE is like very she/her but I do really think that many parts of BABE are extremely, extremely, extremely they/them and I would say that even the opening poem even though the term "girl" and "Lucky girl" is used or how the term "leading lady" is used, I think that there is this big association though because growing up even before I knew I was queer but before I knew I was queer I was a really lonely kid growing up in Allentown, Pennsylvania and I was a nerdy kid I was just very ambitious from a young age because I wanted to get out of that town and so I wanted to make sure that i could like ensure a good future for myself. I'm lucky because you know my parents worked very hard you know and I can't thank them enough but I think about being this queer kid and I used to watch all these old hollywood films and—yes, many parts of old hollywood films I cannot stand are extremely problematic—but I will also say this, you can kind of hold both things so say though there is kind of this artistry to old hollywood films that is completely lost today and think that of course queerness doesn't exist as a monolith neither does the queer experience of a queer POC in America those don't exist as monoliths though I would like to argue that like people of those and multiple identities probably find something in film that makes them cry, that makes them connect too, because all those films are examples of huge showmanship and artistry and in many senses of the word being able to conquer the world. You think about MGM Musicals, you think about icons like Judy Garland, and what she means to lets say the queer community and how these very powerful women in film, who are able—unlike today—who are able to sing and dance and act—no offense to actors today—but that back then they had all these high requirements of actors. Zoe They were showmen Dorothy They were such showmen. And I think that that's kind of where the beauty of that comes in. Where again, looking back now I can say that yes, there's so many things wrong with these films given the context: who makes them, who's excluded from these films. There's also films that I can't watch because they make me cringe because of the sheer racism involved. Like I can't watch "Breakfast Activities" at all. But I do think though if we're looking at the other part that art that showmanship, it is really a lot of this queer power. Zoe Awesome Dorothy Yeah. Thank you. Zoe Okay. If you'd like to answer one more question? Dorothy Yeah. Let's do it. Zoe I'm curious about your visual and language tastes over time. Specifically, in how you're writing, in how you're evolving your style through writing. Can you just talk about that evolution specifically with regard to the craft? Dorothy Oh, yeah, I love that. So this is a really beautiful, serendipitous moment because this past week I started to explain and teach the sonnet to my advanced poetry workshop. And, I think that like talking about the sonnet is kind of the root of that. It's really interesting because what happened in that class, and these are all very valid questions with students, some of my students—I send them home with homework—some of my students asked me okay, so besides the fact that the sonnet is 4x14 lines and besides the fact that there's iambic pentameter how do I know its a sonnet and then conversely, some students are also like oh but I've read sonnets in my spare time that are 50 or 60 lines and the poet is calling it a sonnet. How do you know that? There are a couple really brilliant answers. Like, some students who have been picking up on the sonnet have been—more, so far, and they're all going to get there—said something like, "Oh, the sonnet is like an essence, or the sonnet is like a feeling, or the sonnet is kind of like commemorating, and I believe in that. I that in itself the sonnet is a feeling. I like to say that the sonnet is like an amuse bouche or like an appetizer of poetry. And I think that oftentimes, though of course every poet and writer has their own journey formally or content-wise, I don't foresee a time when I will never not go back to the sonnet. I that whenever I have trouble writing something everything at least stems back to those like—that kind of loose-ish ten syllable count because that how we speak. It's like poetry has this audience and we need to talk directly to the audience. So, why can't the writer and thus the speaker actually treat the audience as like a close friend. So if you were talking on a phone with your close friend, wouldn't you say ten syllables and then actually pause and then break? And so that's kind of part of that evolution. I think another part of that evolution is continuously refining how I look at the sonnet. I know to many the sonnet seems to be so minuscule and like microscopic, but it really kind of like hones, for me, it really hones in that craft. Even now, as I keep working on my next two collections, obviously I don't only write sonnets. I'm writing these prose poems now that I'm really fond of. But I would actually argue that though these poems are yes, distinctly prose poems, they are not sonnets, I think I take many of my sonnet training into creating these prose poems in the sense that I look at these prose poems as extremely delicate. I would say that I'm trying hard to keep up my very natural rhythms in this creation as well. Zoe I also wanted to know when you first started to incorporate food as references. I can't remember if I've already asked that because I know we've touched on it several times. Dorothy No, no, I'm happy to talk about food. Zoe That one poem we were talking about ["Goodbye J."] has this one line that says, "And I'll need a Cherry Coke over my breast soon"—I think it's from that same poem. Dorothy Yeah, yeah. Zoe I love that image that it creates because I can see a bent wrist and the beading condensation on the glass. Dorothy Yeah. [laughs] Zoe And of course there's a straw. But—that's just in my mind. Dorothy It's kind of like a—it's probably like a whirly straw like — Zoe Right? Dorothy It's one of those Micky Mouse one's you get at Disneyland so—I love that—I was thinking about this the other day, like no joke, I was actually thinking about this. So, there's like Coca Cola and then there's like Diet Coke and there's Coke Zero and we have Cherry Coke and we have like Vanilla Coke and Orange Coke, right? I feel like the Coke that someone chooses is essentially the essence of their personality. Zoe Right, yeah. Dorothy I don't know if any of this is making sense but I feel like, the Coke that you choose is like the essence. And within the essence of BABE, as was captured in like, your design, and the photo inspirations it's like totally like a Cherry Coke. Yeah, okay, it is like a pun. Like there's a lot of like sexual connotations of that. But then we can also say that a Cherry is a pretty aesthetic fruit—it's a pleasing fruit—it's a pretty like agreeable, likable, crowd-pleasing flavor. So, I think that that's like highly fitting. Going back to foods, so there's all kinds of food in BABE. I just adore the fact that you like listed all of them. There's a lot of different types of food. I think that food that I will always go back to is how—and this is also another really beautiful coincidence because this coming week in class I'm actually teaching this essay about food written by this really brilliant Asian-American scholar and I think about how when I was growing up. So I was born in the United States and we moved back to Hong Kong for about a year and then we moved back to the States just because my dad is just a really generous person. He thought that living in the states would be better for me and my brother though he was making so, so much more money in Hong Kong. So that's sacrifice right there. I remember these like early experiences I had as a kid because most of the food that I would eat growing up would be like Chinese food or some sort of like Asian food. They're very different like a standard like white American diet so. I think that's something that people don't always like think about so much. Because they think about "Oh, when I travel I want to travel for food." But the thing is when you're like moving between countries, you are actually like switching your palettes as well, I would say. Because if you think about how diverse Asia is, or you think about how diverse Europe is, even like traveling between countries there, there is such a vast difference in the foods even if they have certain like intersections of culture. And I remember being this kid. We were flying back to America. I had no clue what was going on. As a kid you just kind of process everything in your own way. I remember the flight attendant gave me this tray of—it had a cheeseburger and gummy bears. I remember crying when I got the cheeseburger. I didn't know how to eat it. I know that sounds very strange, but I just didn't know how to like eat it because it's like this new experience for me and obviously we know now—like, I love burgers. But that's a very like typical like American casual dining dish. I remember when I started elementary school in America I would always be really confused because milk is not a big part of most like East Asian American diets. And like if we have any like dairy product it's like ice cream or it's something that's like yogurt-y but it's still not the same kind of yoghurt texture that is so common in America. I remember being really confused like how everyone was drinking milk at school because I still wasn't used to the taste. You know, I think I have like—it's very common—but having this low degree of lactose intolerance to an extent. I remember other foods that confused me. I was confused by salad dressing. And like, no offense to these foods, but it's more like I was getting used to this like new experience. There are just a lot of foods that I didn't quite understand. But I think though growing up I think that things that would definitely hurt my feelings—because when I was like processing milk or like cheese, I kind of kept it to myself. I think it really hurt my feelings when like kids at school would like make fun of like my packed lunches. But then, you know, because like then you think about the richness of authentic Cantonese cuisine. But then the irony of that is how, when I got older, so maybe from like, from college, let's say from a time I was in college I was like an older teen to a young adult. That was around the time when people start to mature. And then a lot of people would start asking, "Oh, if we go to New York together, could you take me to the best Dim Sum. If we go to this place together, can you show me what to order." And, obviously if someone's your friend you're gonna like do that. But you think about this cultural phenomenon of like how food such as in my case, Chinese foods were made fun of at a young age for being like pungent or stinky or just different, you know? But nowadays food culture drives so much consumerism as well. And so all these people who haven't been exposed to that food suddenly want to go to the best Dim Sum, or like, noodle house, and get the best like roasted pork. But it's like, in many ways, it stems—no offense—but it kinda stems from this fetish. It stems from this fetish of "Oh, this food just—this culture—has been bothered, now I want it." Zoe That's right. Dorothy And I think that—Yeah—I think that in poetry I kind of like, I'm able to also use food kind of similar to the color red, let's say, as this like reclaiming of power because, yes, food does matter. Like, it's not just about sustenance, or like, staying healthy, or staying alive. But it matters because China is such a complex place. My family is from Hong Kong and whenever I go to Hong Kong my parents actually educate me on food—not just how to cook it—they educate me on big gaps of knowledge like my own culture. I think I kind of take the space of my poems to explain that to people. And I also do think, you know, metaphors between food and sex—there's a lot of them—but you could also just like use food as this like pleasurable experience because like I think that so often there's room for all kinds of poetry and I think that food is something regardless of what foods someone likes or how picky of an eater they are, or what culture they come from, or what culture they're trying to fit into, food is something that unites us all. We can all be happy sharing a meal. Zoe What would your ideal table setting be? Dorothy Oh, you mean like creating like a menu and stuff? Oh, that's fun. Zoe Maybe not a menu, but for like your friends, or whoever. Or yourself? Are you just by yourself? Dorothy Yeah, so that's an amazing question. So my next book that I've been working on is set up like a menu. The table of contents is set up like a menu. But I think that my default would always be like Dim Sum because Dim Sum is a very communal experience. There's definitely something for everyone in that. One time during one of the trips, the family trips, to Hong Kong, my family took me to a very authentic—that's funny to say authentic—because everything in Hong Kong would be authentic. Zoe [laughs] Dorothy But a very like extreme—but this was authentic to the infinite let's say—if like a regular, regular place is authentic, this place was like authentic to like the extreme, okay? So they took me to this authentic Dim Sum place with all kinds of the standard stuff like Shu Mai, or like the pork buns, you know, but they also had like stuff that is really like fun to find and kind of old-fashioned, in a way. I thought that was like really cool because, yeah, like I also think about how I would go to Dim Sum with my grandparents in Hong Kong. Not just for convince, but Dim Sum is kind of this like interestingly and beautifully—I usually don't say this—but it's actually a very beautifully traditional thing that people do. So oftentimes, if you are in Hong Kong, especially if you are in Kowloon, and especially before the afternoon, you will see a lot of much older people sitting there with their life-long friends, because that's what—it's just this very beautiful generational thing. Zoe Yeah. So communal and [unintelligible] that you can see that and share that Dorothy exactly. And it's just like really easy that way because it's like communal, so it's easy to order like extra and it's also just easy because like I love the fact that so often you know most Asian style meals are served very communal or family-style, you can have a little bit of everything. Zoe That's beautiful. That's the experience of reading BABE. Dorothy Oh, thank you. Zoe It's this very generous, generous book and I felt seen reading it. Dorothy Thank you Zoe And I felt honored to be able to see these parts of BABE. The textures, the colors, it's really eye-opening, it's just filled with wonder. Dorothy Thank you. Zoe It was a pleasure to design. It was a pleasure to lay out, specifically talking about the poems. They look really nice on the page. Dorothy They look amazing Zoe It was really, like, the sonnets fit in a way that I was surprised was so easy. Dorothy Yeah Zoe Like, I thought I'd have more trouble getting everything to work, but it just—in the way that you or I would read through it—it just, your words flow with such ease. So thank you for that opportunity too. Dorothy I can't thank you enough. It's just been such a wonderful time so far with you, Zoe, and with like Patty and Law and Diode. I remember one of my favorite memories is when we got to meet. It was AWP in Portland. We had a really big venue so it was really nice to get to see a good number of the Diode authors and I think that we have such a beautiful, vibrant, diverse, poetry community. And the sonnets look perfect on the page too because like the triple sonnets like really hard to format because it's got the third and you want to like make sure that it's not like cut off. But it works so delicately and so perfectly and, as we talked about earlier, it's like accessible, it's also pleasing to the eye, and I think that a high number of readers are able to like access the information on the page. I really can't thank you enough. I'm just really touched with like being able to see your process today. I was so touched when we were working on the book and we got to do the reading and it just makes me so happy so thank you! Zoe Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to talk about all this. I'd love to talk to you again about color, just in general. Dorothy Yes, yes! Zoe I have more color stories, if you're interested [laughs] Dorothy We need to talk about that. I would love that so much. And I'm hoping you know, that once it is safe to travel, you know, I look forward to the next AWP or the next conference we do as a press so we can connect more. Zoe Definitely. I look forward to that too. Thank you so much for your time today. Dorothy Thank you, Zoe. This was such a highlight.